In this episode, Jason Niedle speaks with Nancy Lyons, co-founder of Clockwork, about the importance of people in driving tech growth. They discuss the challenges of diversity in tech, the significance of a people-first approach in business, and the evolving landscape of growth strategies. Nancy shares insights on navigating change, embracing AI, and the future of work, emphasizing the need for organizations to focus on their culture and the well-being of their employees.
Takeaways
- People drive tech growth, not just technology itself.
- Diversity in tech is still a significant challenge.
- Culture fit should not mean hiring people who look like us.
- Self-awareness is crucial in hiring practices.
- Comfort zones can hinder growth and innovation.
- Clockwork focuses on change enablement in tech projects.
- Building relationships is key to successful partnerships.
- Storytelling is essential for demonstrating value to clients.
- AI is a tool that can enhance work, not replace it.
- Organizations must prioritize employee well-being over shareholder value.
Sound Bites
“Culture fit means looks like me.”
“Is growth success?”
“It’s a chemistry, not a size.”
BeyondSaaS Transcript
Jason Niedle (00:00)
Today we’re talking with Nancy Lyons, co-founder of Clockwork, About how it’s really people that drive tech growth.
Welcome to Season Two of Beyond SaaS. I’m Jason Niedle, founder of Tethos. We’re a growth agency, and we partner with tech companies to deliver growth solutions and sales.
I did put together all the things that we’ve learned from those interviews, it’s called the Hypergrowth Playbook. And you can grab that for free at tethos.com/podcast. It is actually useful, by the way. I’m really excited today to talk to you, Nancy.
Nancy is the co-founder of Clockwork, on their website it says, Clockwork builds enterprise websites, software platforms and mobile applications that help businesses solve big gnarly problems and sometimes medium sized one. That’s pretty clear. Nancy is very clearly proud of her People First as a business strategy.
And I think that’s really clear in the award-winning culture that you see at Clockwork. She’s known for being bold and vulnerable and a truth teller. She’s the author of two books, the most admired CEO in Minneapolis, St. Paul, Business Owner of the Year from the National Association of Women Business Owners and much, much more. So Nancy, I am super excited to talk. Thank you for being here.
Nancy Lyons (01:06)
Thanks for having me. I’m excited to have this conversation as well.
Jason Niedle (01:09)
Hey, before I forget, do you have a quick tip for our listeners, a golden nugget of sorts?
Nancy Lyons (01:14)
I’ve been telling everybody recently about napkin.ai. So if you’re somebody who creates a lot of decks, likes to make infographics, uses visualizations of data, napkin.ai is a secret weapon. You can describe or put a mockup.
in the field that’s asking you to provide details or shape for your image or your infographic. And napkin.ai will create it for you and give you several versions that you can use in your deck. And it is a game changer as far as presentations are concerned.
Jason Niedle (01:49)
That’s amazing. think you and I could probably have hour long discussions about how AI is going to change our, or is changing our industry right now.
Nancy Lyons (01:55)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, mean AI is, you know, so much fun and creating so much confusion that the change is coming from a variety of directions.
Jason Niedle (02:05)
Yeah, definitely. I have trouble finding women to get on this podcast and women in tech. Why do you think that is and what needs to change?
Nancy Lyons (02:12)
Well, I think it’s hard to find women for these conversations and women in tech because it’s still an issue. It’s still something that we see. You know, it’s a tough nut to crack. It’s still very white and male. The language is specific. There’s a lot of rules that don’t apply in this space. It’s a social
culture versus a work, sort of a traditional work culture problem. And I think that we have an expectation of fit and homogeneity when we are adding to teams and organizations.
We need to be more comfortable with people who think differently, divergently than we do and challenge us because that tension is where product improves and where organizations innovate. And I think until…
Jason Niedle (02:46)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Nancy Lyons (03:01)
we get past the desire for my team to look and think like me. know, women and other marginalized folks are going to have a harder time finding their way into this space.
Jason Niedle (03:09)
I’ve heard several CEOs tell me that culture fit is the most important thing. How do we make sure that it’s a culture fit but that we’re not in that same place where we’re like culture fit means looks like me? You know, like how do we kind of push through that?
Nancy Lyons (03:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. I think it starts with self-awareness. How do we conduct the interviews differently? How do we invite a fit that will also challenge us and I actually think it requires sort of a different starting point. It requires us to dig in and really examine what is important to our culture, what will push growth in our organization and challenge thinking.
So yeah, I think it requires self-awareness and self-examination and the ability to recognize biases and the ability to recognize your comfort zone and how it’s becoming a barrier to progress.
And I think it’s a real people problem, right? Like, there’s a lot of technology that can solve a lot of problems at work right now, but this isn’t one of them. And so maybe it’s therapy, maybe it’s executive coaching, maybe it’s getting real about hiring strategy.
Jason Niedle (04:06)
Yeah.
you said in there is so critical in so many levels. You said it’s our comfort zone is a barrier to progress. And for sure that was true in my life. Like I wasn’t growing and learning for many years. I was comfortable. This business is 22 years old and many of those years it ran great. And then, but I didn’t grow it, right? Because I was comfortable, you know? And then the growth is uncomfortable and the doing the new things is uncomfortable.
Nancy Lyons (04:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jason Niedle (04:35)
but that’s how we’re growing finally, right? Jumping on and saying I’m starting a podcast was uncomfortable, but that’s how we’re getting out there now. So I think that’s true everywhere and absolutely true with culture and who you’re bringing in as well.
Nancy Lyons (04:47)
Yeah, I agree and I actually think Is growth success is a it’s a big question I think that capitalism is baked into our DNA at this point and so we believe that in order to be successful we have to get bigger and make more money and my question is
if we take care of ourselves and each other in the context of this organization and if we’re doing right by the purpose of the organization, the mission, do we really have to get bigger to prove it or can we just deliver quality work? So at what point does your comfort zone as a founder actually define success, but how we add people to the mix, is still a challenge.
Jason Niedle (05:17)
Hmm.
Nancy Lyons (05:28)
So I think there’s different facets to the comfort zone conversation that are worth exploring.
Jason Niedle (05:33)
100%. Yeah, and I like that. Well, tell me a little bit, it sounds like you’ve built a badass cool company. Tell me about Clockwork.
Nancy Lyons (05:38)
Clockwork is an experienced design and technology consultancy. We’re based in Minneapolis with clients all over the globe. And I co-founded it with partners in 2002, and we’ve grown it for 23 years. And we work largely on software and digital strategy for the enterprise. So our clients right now,
really exist in four verticals for the most part. It’s insurance manufacturing, healthcare and financial services. And most of them are large clients and we solve big complex problems for them like building customer service tools and sales enablement tools for automotive dealerships like
reimagining retirement benefits platforms for insurance organizations, really helping healthcare to adopt strategies that make their work and their process more efficient, but also cut down on costs and increase efficiency for things like rounding doctors so really fun challenges.
And I recently decided to step away from the organization and pursue some other dreams that I have, primarily because, you know, it’s time. It’s time for me. And I believe in the vision and the future of Clockwork and also believe that, new and fresh thinking is important. so I’m very excited. I’ll continue to sit on that board and continue to
be an advisor, but I think it’s time for new thinking to drive that vision and I’m excited for it.
Jason Niedle (07:13)
So I want to explore Clockwork a little bit more, now I’m intrigued. Do you want to talk about any of your new projects?
Nancy Lyons (07:18)
Not yet, not yet. I, yeah, I want to help women and other marginalized folks build, grow, and sell their businesses. And I’m thinking through exactly what that looks like, but I’m very excited about it. You know, to your earlier question, why aren’t there more women in tech? That’s a great question. And I think what I’d like to do is build bridges to not just answer that question, but solve the problem.
Jason Niedle (07:21)
Tease us a little.
I know I don’t qualify in any of those categories, but I would love to help you and chat through that if there’s anything in there, because that is a passion of mine. And it’s fascinating and I think critical, because that’s where so much of the good change can happen that hasn’t been facilitated and hasn’t been moved along.
Nancy Lyons (07:58)
Totally agree. Totally agree. And as a woman in business and a woman in tech, I certainly know how often I don’t get the call. And so I want to, really address the systems that make that true and see where we can make some change. So I’m excited.
Jason Niedle (08:12)
Cool. So at Clockwork, you’re one year older than we are here, but sounds like you build a much bigger company. You’re working in four fields that are traditionally pretty stubborn, I guess would be a good word, right? They have dozens of stakeholders and there’s politics and there’s resistance to change. And some of them are old school, like manufacturing in many ways and healthcare is afraid of data leaks. you know, there’s a million things. How do you say, I’m going to boldly build you something new when…
80 % of that organization is kind of dragging their feet.
Nancy Lyons (08:41)
We built a change enablement practice at Clockwork about eight years ago and that practice touches just about everything we do. And so we recognize we can’t just implement new technology without really understanding the people plan. And if we’re involved in driving the people plan, we are that much closer to success.
So I think that is one way that we’ve approached these issues differently than maybe our counterparts or competition. We’ve really worked to make change leaner, more accessible, more understandable, to demonstrate the value of strategic change and to make it part of the work that we do from the very first conversation.
So I think that is one really critical way. I also think that we were very intentional about working with those particular industries, those verticals, because everybody’s vying for the Facebooks, the Googles, the Expedias, the travel advisors, the trip advisors. Everybody wants the big tech-driven organizations, to be on their rosters. But we feel like,
modernizing technology for clients that perhaps struggle to do that internally, and also helping to create the game plan for growth and helping to recognize where the pain points are and address those in a sustainable way makes us more valuable.
Jason Niedle (09:59)
Mm.
Nancy Lyons (10:07)
You just said your company’s about a year younger than ours. 23 years gives you lot of points to pivot and a lot of opportunities to examine whether or not your services are resonating with client needs. And so I think that where we are now is in this place of deep understanding that as a leaner
more nimble, capable team of very experienced technologists if we factor in the people, early in the process and really explore how to talk to them, how to get engagement, how to keep that engagement and keep them involved in a way that also informs how we share with the rest of their teams.
I think that just changes the game for all of us. And so we very deliberately moved into these spaces because we absolutely see these regulated industries as needing the kind of resources that we bring to bear.
Jason Niedle (11:01)
Yeah, I guess in my mind, I almost see a visualization of many companies just go a little tiny bit in the company and they’re just getting to this area where we’re addressing your tech and the logical or maybe your tech and branding issue here. And it sounds like you’re going deeper and saying, look, here are the fundamental systems that aren’t working and here’s how they might be able to work. And here’s how we can resolve. Like you’re going deeper into it in order to solve this, the lower level problems that they’re actually trying to resolve.
Nancy Lyons (11:25)
That’s absolutely true. And we’re not pulled into then their bureaucracy, we’re not pulled into their politics, we’re really trying to look at it as a what’s best for everyone and understanding the different stakeholders and the different categories of audience that we’re dealing with and how do we communicate that in a way that makes everyone want to be those cheerleaders.
Jason Niedle (11:47)
How do you break through and get the depth? A lot of times people want to keep you shallow, keep you at a distance like, hey, I just want the website. Why are you asking me about my systems?
Nancy Lyons (11:56)
Yeah, I mean, that’s a fair question. And the honest answer is we don’t always get to break through. I think that a lot of organizations, especially very traditionally managed organizations, have folks inside who hoard information as a way of, keeping their positions
safe. And, that’s the first sign of sort of a lack of health inside of an organization. So I absolutely believe that we have various methods for triggering conversations, a lot of it is workshop and facilitating workshops and getting people engaged in the conversation. So we’re not pointing issues out, they’re discovering them in collaboration with us. So it’s not like a big reveal after a period of time.
Jason Niedle (12:30)
Mmm.
Sure.
Nancy Lyons (12:36)
Like we acknowledge these pain points together and then we agree to a collaborative plan forward. So that’s what change allows us to do. But absolutely there are still people who are like, you know what, we’re not going to talk to you about this. You’re the technology people. Just do the technology.
Jason Niedle (12:49)
I like the workshop idea. It’s not that “You’re doing this wrong.” It’s like, “let’s sit down and talk about the problem,” right? And then they discover what they need to be doing with your facilitation. So I think that’s crucial. And I imagine you build that into all the projects as you’re going
Nancy Lyons (12:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, we have a very well-defined process and we do try to show up for those conversations to really impress upon our clients the importance of recognizing the potential for those issues to be much bigger. So, I’m proud of what we’ve been able to do and I would say nine times out of ten our clients value that work as well.
Jason Niedle (13:21)
Sure, I bet. Is there like an overall arc? I like to think, for example, I like to think in my company, we do the discovery and the learning and figure things out, then we do planning, which might be strategy and what do you need, and then we end up in the creative side of things, which could be design or content, then execution and then follow through, like what’s working and what’s not, and let’s adjust course. Do you kind of have an arc that you think about in your system or a high level view of your
Nancy Lyons (13:45)
Yeah, so sure. We are an EOS company. So we went through the entrepreneurial operating system, which really makes you define a process. I’m of the mindset that processes are not static. They’re ever evolving so that we can increase efficiency. So that’s something that we look at all the time. But yeah, absolutely. We have a process that we share with our clients as we move into working with them.
For the most part, we’re a very agile organization and we work in the context of sprint. So even our change work comes in and is something we explore as part of this sort of holistic view of the work that we’re being asked to move into. But yeah, I mean, we’ve always had a process. In fact, my first book was about project management and process.
and how you think about it, but also the importance of thinking about it in the context of how people actually work and think and feel. Because you can have all the process you want, but people and their emotions and their inability to communicate well can really mess with that process. So I think being well equipped to adjust and not rely on checklists is where a company like ours really demonstrates strength.
Jason Niedle (14:54)
Yeah, 100%. I love the talk about growth. I know you’re not involved in the day-to-day at Clockwork, but are you guys looking to grow? what’s working, what’s not? Can we talk a little bit about your specific growth?
Nancy Lyons (15:05)
I think Clockwork has been on a really great trajectory. Obviously the pandemic was a setback for every company on the planet, but I’m really proud of how we came out of that crisis and 2023 proved to be our best year ever. And I think that when we talk about growth right now, we’re more focused on
obviously revenue growth, but we’re more focused on increasing efficiency and reducing the amount of administrative pain, that individuals on the staff feel and really taking advantage of tools and platforms that are available to us to communicate better, to work more efficiently, to deliver in a more timely fashion, to reduce costs for our clients. So I would say that our growth
thinking is really wrapped around, first of all, sustainable technology. You we want to build solutions that last and be strategic partners for our clients instead of being maintenance and support partners. And we’ve been really managing to do that over the last 10 years in a really successful way. So I think really planning with our clients about their growth and their
vision for the future and being installed in that in a meaningful way is important to us.
I think really embracing storytelling as a significant part of our brand and being able to demonstrate outcomes in a way that executives and decision makers can latch onto and then committing to those outcomes, measuring those outcomes.
so that we’re not just making empty promises and rebuilding tech in a year or two, we’re driving intentional growth on behalf of our clients.
Jason Niedle (16:40)
I love that storytelling is part of the brand I think is fully resonates with me because I think that’s what my use as a human is, right? There’s always going to be somebody better at tech and there’ll probably always be better designers and there’s people with other systems and bigger companies, but can we find this story and extract it and tell it in a story that resonates with people? And I think that’s just so huge.
Nancy Lyons (17:00)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Niedle (17:02)
So what are you guys doing to grow? Obviously referrals, I imagine, are great for you guys. Are you doing anything to facilitate those?
Nancy Lyons (17:10)
I do a lot of public speaking and the reason for that is to raise the profile and show up in the more human side of business in a very intentional way. We’ve shifted a lot of our sort sales and marketing strategy to be much more in person, much more networking, less funnel and outreach, more
high touch relationship based. And the reason for that is because, what’s happening online is so fragmented, it’s really hard to land on a strategy that works 100 % of the time, or even yields results that are, better than, a couple of percentage points in the direction we’re trying to move.
So we’ve started facilitating more in-person events. We’ve started showing up at more conferences and really working to forge relationships with folks that are decision makers but are dealing with problems that we’re well-versed at solving. And I think that’s proven to be really effective. You know, Minneapolis, a lot of people say, why do you live there? It’s cold. Well, we live here because we have more Fortune Fives per capita than just about any market in the country. So we’ve got Target and Honeywell and 3M and General Mills and
Medtronic and Boston Scientific and I mean, I can’t even name all of the Fortune Fives here, but there’s a reason for business and industry to headquarter here. And it’s each other for the most part. And so, you know, there are lot of opportunities to have those conversations with the decision makers that we’re targeting.
And then as a result of just keeping our promises with them, you know, just recently we got a referral from Australia. So we know that in-person, high touch relationship building, works. And we also know that there is global benefit to keeping your promises and showing up to deliver with integrity. And we’re standing by that.
Jason Niedle (18:44)
Mm.
you
100%. I like to look at constraints. What’s holding you back internally? What could allow you to grow faster? Is there some constraint there that, you if we dig deep.
Nancy Lyons (19:12)
I mean, for any business, there’s so many constraints, right? I think a big one for us is a lack of willingness to invest in partners that are not a mirror of you. So you know, we work with large corporate clients, and they see us as a smaller extension of their team and a strategic partner. And when it works, it works so well.
But when we are dealing with organizations that are used to working with the giant consulting firms and a much slower pace of evolution, the pace that we work could be difficult. And, that I think is a constraint because it’s a constraint from the moment of, first interaction because
Jason Niedle (19:48)
Mm.
Nancy Lyons (19:57)
we’re not competing with our competitors, we’re competing with the story of them or the comfort level with the brand. Because if you were going to compare us like apples to apples, if you put us in a room, we have generally more senior people, generally more, scrappier, more curious,
Jason Niedle (20:04)
Hmm.
Nancy Lyons (20:15)
harder working because I do think that those big corporate environments also create places for people to hide and be less curious and challenge themselves less. So I do think that sometimes it’s the lack of understanding on the client side around what a reputable partner can be that is a constraint to our growth. And then, I think the rest of it is just humans on all sides of the equation where there are people, there are problems.
Jason Niedle (20:20)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Lyons (20:42)
And I think anybody that employs humans is constantly, you know, it’s sort of why we do change. It’s almost never the technology that’s the actual issue. It’s almost always how people respond to it. And so I think anytime you bring new blood in, anytime you bring new thinking in, the resistance is felt on all sides and it shows up, in ways that can be a barrier to progress. And so I think
are just wanting to deal with and talk about in an open way how to be proactive about the changes that this technology is going to bring is one way for us to address those constraints.
Jason Niedle (21:20)
I wonder too, on that lack of willingness to invest in partners that are not a mirror, sometimes that’s just clearly not going to be a cultural fit. But I wonder on some of those, how much it’s just education or fixing that story so that it resonates with them. Because there certainly will be times where it’s just not going to be a culture fit. They’re going to be slow and you guys are fast or whatever. But some of those times, I think you’re right. Like it gets back to that story. And I like the idea of
Nancy Lyons (21:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jason Niedle (21:44)
the story of the other competitors, not necessarily the other competitors in reality.
Nancy Lyons (21:47)
Yeah, I mean, I totally There are clients that are ideal for us and it’s a chemistry. It’s not a size. It’s not even a particular industry. It’s a chemistry. And I think being a smaller consultancy makes it hard.
Jason Niedle (22:00)
Mm-hmm.
Nancy Lyons (22:05)
to really do the litmus test on the number of clients we need to do to get to those high performing, high functioning collaborations that ensure success for everybody. But when we do it and we do it often enough, it’s magical.
Jason Niedle (22:20)
Any thoughts about AI that you want to put out there?
Nancy Lyons (22:23)
I, uh, it’s, I think anybody who’s worked in the technology space has to acknowledge that we’ve been working with artificial intelligence for a very long time. So this isn’t new. What’s new is the mainstream conversation, the generative conversation, how it’s showing up for most of us in most industries where it used to be, you know, pretty limited to technology.
The conversations that I’m most intrigued by are all the ways that people want to resist it. And I sort of feel like that is pointless, but instead of being reactive to what you want to resist.
I think being proactive, it’s why, you know, those of us who are on Instagram or TikTok, you see those ads where they’re saying, hey, if you’re over 40 and you’re worried about losing your job, let us teach you AI. There’s a reason they’re using that angle. And it’s because there are enough vocal folks that are not in the tech space that are resistant to AI
could at some point down the road actually be victims to the efficiencies and opportunities that AI doors open for us. And so I think, I’m excited about it. I use different tools every single day. And I just really want to encourage people, regardless of age or
generation they belong to, I just think it’s a good idea for folks to make it part of, their exploration, their career, their continuing education, their professional development, whether you do it formally. And listen, you’re talking to somebody who has worked in internet technology for my entire career, and I
am self-taught and so are the majority of the people that I have been in the space with for this long. And I will say this and will probably have people argue with me, but the most interesting engineers and strategists and designers that I’ve worked with are the self-taught ones because they’re never done and they’re always curious and they play when they’re not working. And those are people that are really, really interesting to me. So I’m not of the belief that
it can’t be taught that you can’t learn new skills and show up differently in a space that you have depth of understanding in. So I guess if I’m going to talk about AI, it would just be go there, go there, try it, find tools you can use, get some subscriptions, take some LinkedIn or Coursera classes, go to meetups, challenge yourself.
Jason Niedle (24:30)
Go there.
Nancy Lyons (24:40)
Because it isn’t going anywhere and when you start to embrace it, you’ll realize how it can enhance the work that you’re doing, but also position you for additional success going forward.
Jason Niedle (24:49)
100%. So the world feels really turbulent and chaotic in every which way right now from technology to government. What trends do you see ahead that companies might be able to look at in terms of growing? My business in many ways, the design side of it I think is getting less and less and it’s like focusing on the problem solving is the key. What is my humanity in this business here? It’s not necessarily
making a logo or figuring out what colors it is, it’s solving the bigger problems. What trends do you see in looking ahead?
Nancy Lyons (25:15)
Mm-hmm.
I think one of the trends that I’m seeing is what I just shared with you. I only have so much life left to live. Is this really what I want to do for the rest of my life? I want to stay in the technology trenches and try to convince folks to build new solutions to grow their businesses? And I think the answer to that question is no.
I have a greater purpose that I am being called to explore and that’s something that I want to do. So think we’re going to see organizations shift and change pretty dramatically as people start to really examine whether or not they are in a space that they want to continue to invest in because everything is so hard. And if everything is so hard, where can I create less stress and
Jason Niedle (25:42)
Mm.
Nancy Lyons (26:01)
remove more obstacles. So I do think there’s going to be a shift in leadership and culture and at work and more than what we’ve seen. think more than what the pandemic ushered in. Right now we’re seeing, just a year ago it was impossible to hire an engineer. Right now engineers are coming out of the woodwork and looking for jobs and having a hard time finding them. So I do think the people power in the equation is shifting pretty dramatically right now. And I think organizations are
going to have to examine their hiring strategies, the
realities of capitalism and the hustle that we force upon people to continue to overproduce to ensure shareholder value. I think we have to start talking about the people we work with before we talk about shareholders in order to get people engaged enough to even care about the shareholders, because there’s not a lot of incentive for people who are not shareholders to care much.
Jason Niedle (26:46)
Mm.
Nancy Lyons (26:54)
And sometimes those are employees, often those are employees. And I think just really recognizing how we used to be able to say, aren’t you lucky you work for me? And that was enough. And now people just need a little bit more to feel connected to the purpose and the work.
And it’s not a paycheck, it’s not enough. So I think we have to change language and change culture and change attitudes and give people respite when they’re not finding it and give them a reason to want to come and work. Because I don’t know that work on its own or a paycheck on its own is going to do it much longer.
Jason Niedle (27:27)
Yeah, what a great way to wrap up. I’ve loved this. This has been fascinating for me. Where can our audiences find you?
Nancy Lyons (27:32)
That is a wonderful question that I appreciate you ask. You can find me at NancyLyons.com. My book is also available at worklikeaboss.com. I am on TikTok and my handle is @nansplainer and I am on Instagram and my handle is nylons. I’ve had nylons for a billion years, and I’m nylons on threads too.
Jason Niedle (27:52)
And for our listeners out there, that website is NancyLyons.com. And does that link out to all those platforms you just mentioned?
Nancy Lyons (27:58)
That’s it.
Yeah, thanks. That’d be great.
Jason Niedle (28:01)
OK, check out nancyLyons.com for more. Nancy, thank you so much for being on Beyond SaaS. For our tech leadership out there, we’re committed to exploring growth. So we’re dropping episodes twice a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays. And you can find me, Jason Niedle, at tethos.com. That’s T-E-T-H-O-S.com. Or you can also grab that hyperscale playbook at tethos.com/podcast. If you got some value today, I really appreciate you sharing this. Or drop some questions for me or future guests so we can figure out what you need. Until next time.
This is Beyond SaaS.
